Silflay Hraka

A response to their response to my response to their response to…..oh the hell with it.

This is Part three.
Part one is here.
Part two is here.

The Instapundit bandwith firehose seems to be tapering off a bit, thank god, or dammit, depending on whether I’m thinking about the number of visitors or the times I’ve been bitch-slapped. In any case, that allows me to respond to the comments one by one rather than as a whole. You can decide for yourself whether that is a good thing or not. As before, thanks for dropping by and allowing us the chance to infect you with our memes.

First up is …dammit the comments server has crashed. Motherpussbucket. Okay, I wanted to do my visitors first, but ya’ll have to wait now. I think Armed Liberal uses Yaccs too, so first up is whatever I find over at Glenn’s place. mmmmmmmm……overly familiar.

First up is Pejman who is….hmmm…..let me check the ecosystem to see how much I have to fear/respect/brownnose him….oooooo… a mortal human! And thus more popular than me.

First up is is the esteemed Pejman Yousefzadeh. Women love him. Men want to be like him. His well thought out comments appear in bold. My hesitant, slipshod and under-informed responses appear in italics My comments on my comments will be underlined

Does this guy

This guy? I have a name. ‘Tis a silly name, but a name nonetheless. To assuage my wounded feelings, Mr. Yousefzadeh, I will for the remainder of our conversation refer to you as Mr. Pej Dispenser…I’m picturing you with……..a…yes, a Homer head.

realize just how hard it is going to be to displace a population of five million people, and then settle them in this country?

Yes, five million at once would be hard. I didn’t call for five million Palestinians to arrive at once, en masse. Small numbers first, then more. In any case, I don’t think we’d every get to five million before the fact of the new Exodus I like this wordplay, for I am easily amused. made a big impact. As I have written elsewhere, East Germany didn?t collapse because all the East Germans left, it collapsed because some of them did. I think the same thing would happen to to PA. In Mr. Dispenser’s defense, he has probably not read those words, for they appeared after he commented in the wee hours of the morning.

I realize that this plan was made with the best of intentions, but it just won’t work.

Thank you, you’re probably right. It definitely won’t work if we don’t try it.

Why not demand that Jordan and/or Egypt give back that part of land that was supposed to help constitute an independent Palestine when it was created along with Israel in 1948?

That’s a great idea. I don’t think it will work, but it’s worth a try. It would dovetail nicely with mine.

Why not demand that Lebanon, the Gulf states, and Iraq treat their Palestinian populations better, and not like second class dirt?

Also a fine idea, but demanding that people treat other people better doesn’t have a real good track record anywhere. As I commented in response to Laurence, before Yaccs took away my comments, bastards! if we treat the Palestinians better than their so-called “Arab Brethren” do, we might find that instead of enemies, we have allies. And no, I’m not suggesting that the whole of the Palestinian people will, Grinch-like, find their hearts growing three sizes that day. But some might. Hell, there are Palestinians helping the Israelis now. We’d be a entire rationalization step down from that.

If they do these things, it would be a lot easier to cause Palestinians to move elsewhere (although it still will not be easy). But relocating most or all of them to America? If only it were that simple.

I’ve never claimed that my idea was a simple, stand-alone solution. Thanks for the comments, Pejman. You already know this, but that’s an excellent blog.

Next: John Tilley. Come on down!

This sounds suspiciously like a “Worthwhile Canadian Initiative”.

Oooooooo….that’s a fine idea.

I wish Silflay hadn’t mentioned Canada as a possible destination. We just might try it.

Well, you’ve got better beer. They might like it more up there.

Only there would be no restrictions, no monitoring and no deportations for violations of Canadian law.

Canada has laws?

Just a couple of million Palestinians training and mobilizing in Ontario with the financial support of the federal gov.

I don’t think we should put them in the same place, and I definitely don’t think we should give them much assistance, certainly less than the welfare recipients here get. The Irish found jobs and houses, so did the Italians. The Palestinians can do the same. If we must spend money on them, let it come out of the funds we send to the Middle Eastern Arabs for foreign aid.

Okay, Yaccs is still down, and AL….hmmmmmm calls himself a liberal, comments under the name AL, must be Gore. Al Gore is sending people to my blog! Woo-hoo! AL also uses Yaccs, so I’ll update this later with other comments. Keep the fires burning, people!

Aaaaannd we’re back. Let’s welcome Carey from Cognocentric. Always nice to see a new face, Carey, try to come back early and often.

Here’s the problem:

“… Are you welcoming all the oppressed into our land?

No, but the Statue of Liberty is. Besides, those other guys … [Kashmiris and E.Timorese] … aren?t really bothering us right now.”

This is one of the arguments I gave short shrift to. Let’s get right to the groin kicking

I’ll grant you the remark about the Statue of Liberty (never did see how we squared “Give me your poor …” with 20th century immigration policies). But what do you think will happen when the Kashmiris, the IRA, the Chechens, the Timorese, the Tamils, or whoever, find out that the surest and quickest way to get a permanent US visa is to pick up a gun or throw a bomb, provided only that they don’t get caught?

Well, most of them are going to get caught. Certainly most of the Palestinians do. In any case, they must not only escape Justice, they’ve got to create a conflagration that burns the US, as this one has. It’s not right, but it’s the way of the world.

No thanks. Nice idea, but exactly the wrong incentive is being offered.

How about free ice cream? People like ice cream!

Maybe if you said the US will start admitting Palestinians by the thousands or tens of thousands under a special program which is scheduled to begin ten years after the last act of political violence …

There’s no incentive for us to do anything ten years after they’ve finally calmed down over there. Also, the Palestinians don’t seem to understand that argument real well. Israel has been using something akin to it for a while now. But it would make a nice song “And they won’t leave home till it’s over over there!”

Update: Carey has blogged more on this, and it’s pretty good.

You have a good day, Carey. Folks, meet David!. Howaya, David?

My point, so ably twisted by Hraka,

Thanks David, it’s easy to dodge about when the guy you’re playing against spends most of his time grinding his ax. In any case, I would argue that I simply looked at the same information and reached a different conclusion.

is not that a Palestinian Diaspora will necessarily result in homicide bombings in the United States, but that bringing Palestinians here will not “reform” them, as Hraka’s wishful thinking would have it.

If Palestinians are posessed of some unique arabic original sin, then it should infect all of them. Since there are Palestinians here who have yet to blow themselves up in F.A.O. Schwarz, that original sin doesn’t exist. If only the Palestinians in the Middle East are the ones who sup hate with their mother’s milk, then they are unredeemable and all 10 million be killed, for they cannot be reformed. Is that what you believe? Is genocide the only answer? If it is not, then they can be reformed. If they can be reformed, what better place to do it than the beacon of liberty? In any case, you have looked into the abyss, and been caught. You are the same as the Islamikazes, the same as the Islamofascists, because they also believe that an entire race is evil. They just picked a different race.

Many are here now and hold views just as bad as the “average middle-class Palestinian” in the Middle East, who takes his infant to the equivalent of the KMart Photo Center, to be snapped wearing a gunbelt.

Do you have a picture of an American Palestinian baby dressed up in a suicide outfit? If not, then you are making a statement without supporting evidence. If you do, then CNN will probably give you big bucks. In any case, until American muslims start committing terrorist acts, they get the benefit of the doubt. Speech is not action. Speech suppressed leads to action, though. Which would you prefer? My, that sounds familiar. Getting lazy, there, ‘wig

Location does not change a person’s basic beliefs.

Untrue, As the master said “Changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes“.

The idea that living in a pink house and having plenty of cash and DVDs rather than living in a hovel will transform anyone into a quasi-Republican is not only laughable, but profoundly perverse.

Worked on me. Except for the pink house. That changes people into John Cougar Mellencamp.

The reason is that the idea is based on Marx’s notion that the tools of production condition one’s thinking rather than vice-versa.

Dude. End of history? Cold war over? Communism defeated? And you’re looking to Marx for inspiration?

The Palestinians who are here now and are peaceful, did not arrive full of hatred for the United States and then become “reformed”; those of them who came here did so precisely because they didn’t need to be reformed.

You know, I bet that if we asked them if they wanted to emigrate, before they actually did emigrate, mind you, that their answer would have been yes. Also, I don’t hear a lot of them demanding their “Right of Return”

The reason they changed their material condition and location was because of their ideas - versus a new location and material condition being thrust upon them and, magically, changing their ideas.

My point exactly. We need to get new ideas into the Pali’s in the occupied territories. We can’t do it while they are over there, because over there their leaders kill them when they step out of line. We need to remove them from their leadership, or the leadership from them. It’s possible to do both at once.

In short, the ones who want to be here for the right reason *already are here*; to the extent any Palestinian remains in the Middle East more or less voluntarily, he or she is irredeemable.

You assume that the Palestinians remaining in the Middle East are there voluntarily. We have immigration quotas. I bet the one for Palestinians is full every single year.

Giving someone a (chance at) a nice American house, a nice neighborhood school, wads of cash, a professional career, and all the showgirls boobs he can gawk at, does not transform him into an American patriot. Just ask Mohammed Atta … oh, wait, you can’t.

Nice punch at the end, David. Good use of the language. Atta rented his house, didn’t bring his kids, got his wads of cash from terrorists, had a career as a terrorist and there is no such thing as “all the showgirl’s boobs you can gawk at.” That number is infinite. Other than that, you got a point. Except that your case study didn’t have enough subjects, and thus is inadequate for the conclusion you draw.

Have a good weekend David. I’m sure I’ll see you real soon.

Ngnat is up from her nap. I’ll be back later folks, so hold your abuse until then. And remember “I love you”

Hey, I’ve got a moment! Hi d smith!

You put up a good defense,

Thanks! It’s a standard bob and weave, leavened with cheap shots whenever they present themselves

but I think you’re still overly optimistic about the influence of American culture.

Well, the influx of American culture absolutely terrifies the French, but so does a light wind from the east. But when was the last time you had a Arabic soda pop, or watched a Palestinian movie?. We are the nuclear bomb of cultures, baby.

The 9/11 hijackers lived here for a while before they attacked, didn’t they?

You’ve been talking to David, haven’t you?

We’ve got Islamic schools in America that teach the evils of the Jews.

And no suicide bombers.

We’ve got crackdowns on Moslem businessmen and Moslem charities in America sending money to terrorist organizations abroad.

And no suicide bombers.

You underestimate the strength of their beliefs.

I can’t imagine that they’re any stonger than those people who try to sell me the Watchtower ever week. I think you’re making the mistake of treating 10 million people as a monolithic block. On one end are the Islamikazes. One the other are these guys. Not all Palestinians want to kill you.

I can’t understand why anyone would want to make them America’s problem.

They’re already our problem.

Hell, their Moslem neighbors don’t want them.

Again, if no one wants you, and someone offers you friendship, don’t you think you might be more kindly disposed to them? Jesus, do you have something to add here?

I was hungry and you gave me to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger and you took me in, naked and you dressed me, sick and you visited me, imprisoned and you came to visit me.

Man, that was cheap. Felt good, though.

How many American Moslem friends do you have?

Dunno. Never though to ask. Don’t know how many Baptist friends I have either. The number is more than one in each case, now that I think about it.

Do you ever ask them what their thoughts on Israel are?

We’re usually too drunk to talk about serious stuff. He does bitch about profiling, though. Wait, do you mean the muslim?

Have you suggested that we bring the Palestinians here in order to weaken Palestinian resistance?

Do you think that would make a difference? Even if it pissed him off, he’s not going to go out and blow himself up at the mall. He’s an American.

Have you suggested that we call them detainees and make them clean out the icee machines?

Well, he does need help in the store.

Moment over. Green Mile beckoning. I hear it’s long, so I’ll see you tomorrow. I haven’t forgotten you, Malus. Nor you, Katzman.

Final Update: The Green Mile is the most interminable good movie I have ever seen. Upon further reflection, I have decided that possibly I will forget you guys. I think I’ve addressed most of Joe’s arguments. Joe, if you disagree drop me a note and I’ll cobble something together. I suspect that you don’t care either way, which is fine with me.

Malus, It’s late, but what the hell.

Huh? Perhaps I’m missing something but this reply seems completely unresponsive.

Yes it was. You gave me a six word post, so I didn’t have a lot to address. You suggested that it was not our problem to solve. I dismissed it with a joke, because I think that most people read it, referenced 9/11, and also dismissed it. Your expansion of your post here makes more sense.

You’re suggesting a vast and risky undertaking unprecedented in American history; you’ll have to offer a better defense than this.

It doesn’t have to start out big. Indeed, I don’t think it should.

Look, my point was simply that America didn?t create this problem — if anything it’s the Brits who should clean up the mess.

It’s my personal belief that the Brits gave up empire about three generations too early, but that’s not going to make me any more popular. In any case, they don’t have the muscle anymore. We do.

America isn?t suffering from this situation

9/11. You could argue that 9/11 has nothing to do with this, and you could make a case. But it would be crazy to suggest that we can let the pot boil without it ever harming us.

— yes, our Israeli allies are, but Palestinian terrorism doesn?t hurt the US, and once their Iraqi supporters are vaporized,

That’s us solving the problem. Make up your mind

the Palestinians will be in even less of a position to do harm. Given that we didn?t create this problem, that we don?t suffer from it,

Given that we’re already suffered from it, and are almost guaranteed to suffer from it in future. I have different givens, you see.

and that we are poised to address it by other means,

When you don’t know what works, and we don’t yet, seeing as how the problem is not solved, you should try lots of things, rather than betting everything on one approach.

I just think that this proposal makes very little sense.

Proposal? Damn. I could have sworn I wrote that in the imperative.

Other posters objected to the “Whats.” I won’t even touch that. I don?t think there’s any reason Why.

Pray you never find one. Pray as well that you never say that to someone who has.

Aaaand we’re out. Thanks to all and sundry. That was a pretty fun 60 or so hours.

First the apologies. This is going out to multiple places, because there are multiple places where people are bitching at me. It’s no problem for me, but some of you may run across it more than once. It’s also going out to anyone who listed an email address in the comments on Instapundit, Armed Liberal, and here. Sorry about that. Second, It’s late and I have to get up with a toddler in five hours, so I have given some arguments shorter shrift than they deserve. I’ll email some of you personally with extra shrift later. Third, Armed Liberal has already put up a defense. I haven’t read it yet, as I didn’t want it to affect my thoughts. Fourth, thanks for all the comments.

So, there might be a smidgeon of doubt about the whole “bring the Palestinians over here and teach them good good manners and hygiene” thing. I’ll do my best to address some of the more general themes of discontent, then move on the the more specific.

You are a wacko and your idea is nuts.

Curiously enough, I didn’t expect to be accused of a being crazy, though anyone familar with the majority of my additions to the blogosphere could be expected to argue otherwise. Though, now that I think about it, the looney j’accuse makes perfect sense in light of the situation. What political dialogue there is about the Palestinian situation travels more or less down two specific tracks. The first one is that Israel is an aggressor and an occupier and must give up land for peace with the poor benighted Palestinians. The one more prevalent in the blogosphere is that the only way to prevent Palestinian violence is to punish them until they give up and let the Israelis live in peace. Then, and only then, can there be a Palestinian state. I thought of something different. It doesn’t really fit in as filigree onto one of the two main themes, so it’s crazy. Just because it’s crazy doesn’t mean that it won’t work. And I think it will function elegantly with the second track. More on that later.

Bringing hundreds of thousands of Muslims to America means there will be suicide bombings in America.

Umm, there are already hundreds of thousands of Muslims in America. Heard of any of them blowing themselves up lately?

Fine, bringing thousands of Palestinians to America means there will be suicide bombings in America.

Well, thanks to reader and ubiquitous poster David Rowlett, we know that there are already Palestinians in America, and their children refer to the Intifada as the “Palestinian Freedom Uprising.” Heaven’s Above! Surely there they’ve been involved in suicide bombings? Well….no. Thanks David, though I’m pretty sure helping my argument wasn’t why you posted.

Okay, the Palestinians in America are different than the Palestinians in the Middle East. Those Palestinians eat hate with their mother’s breastmilk, and are indoctrinated day and night in killing.

Well, hell, so did the Japs, and the Krauts. I’m pretty sure I recall the Germans making soap out of dead soldiers back in the Great War. They’re still around, and so are the Nips. There are 10 million Palestinians, and they’re not all hate filled killing machines. They’re just under the control of hate-filled killing machines. Frankly, that argument sounds familiar to me. I think I read it in another book, applied to another people. It’s called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. If they were all hate filled killing machines, they’d be a little more feared. If they were all hate filled killing machines, if we knew that beyond a shadow of a doubt, then all 10 million should all be killed, like rabid dogs. Why have I not heard more calls for this course of action?

I agree that there is a risk allowing Palestinians to emigrate to the US, but the argument that there will be suicide bombings here because of that not only doesn’t hold water, it’s cowardly. People blog all goddamn day about how the Israelis should do this or that to the Palestinians, and why we should bomb the crap out of Iraq, and they can do so because other than that one unpleasant incident, the War on Terror is overseas, and not really threatening. Palestinians over there are nice little targets. Palestinians over here become hulking bringers of death. I know the feeling. I ride the bus to work with a Muslim lady, and every day I look for a bomb. Neither image is a true one. The Palestinians are just people, just like the Germans, just like the Japanese, and just like the Jews. The idea that all 10 million of them are ready to strap on bombs, and all that is stopping them is a lack thereof, is ludicrous.

You can argue that the Palestinians and the Arabs are shame based cultures, like the Japanese and the Germans, and that they must first be thoroughly beaten before we can teach them democracy. That’s a good argument, one that I agree with. I just think maybe we should see if there are any we can teach before we lay waste to them and their land. They’d make nice leaders later.

Letting the Palestinians settle here is appeasement! and The Palestinians won’t come here because they won’t leave their sacred homeland!

I think these cancel each other out. I?ll address them anyway. First, appeasement is when you give an aggressor something he wants, like when Chamberlain gave Hitler the Sudetenland. I don?t recall any demands that we settle Palestinians in America starting yesterday or else, so it’s not appeasement.

If the Palestinians won?t come, then the Palestinians won?t come. No skin off my nose. You would think that if it was that sacred, they might have put up a better fight than they did in ?48. Ask them and see. I think you’ll be surprised. Also, and I think this addresses some of the other complaints, I don?t think many Palestinians need to leave at all to have a huge impact. East Germany didn?t collapse because all the East Germans left, it collapsed because some of them did.

You can?t force them to leave.

Nope. Not trying too. I think they should be offered a choice between “The right of return and present misery” or “No right of return and the chance at a free life.” The Palestinians can choose whichever they like.

This isn?t America?s problem to solve.

Yes, because all the Sept. 11th terrorists were little old ladies with nail clippers. That?s the secret reason why they all get searched now.

You?re counting on the CIA/FBI/INS to do their job, and that?s idiotic.

Nope, read the post. I?m counting on Mossad to do their job. I think they have a good idea of who has been naughty and who has been nice.

You?ll never convince the Western countries to let them in.

Fortunately, this is not my job. I?m just the idea man. But Madison Avenue can sell anything. That?s why the Saudis hired them.

This is a peaceful solution, and as such cannot work.

No, this is a carrot, and carrots never work without sticks. The stick is the continuing Israeli punishment of the Palestinians after each bombing, which I fully support. I just don?t think it will work on its own.

They and their strong culture will overwhelm us.

There?s 10 million of them. There?s 280 million of us, 220 million if you leave out the Gore voters, and many would. Give me a break. I?m also not suggesting that we put them all in the same place. The Middle Eastern Diaspora would be nothing compared to the American one.

You can?t make them follow special rules, it isn?t constitutional.

They?re not citizens. Perhaps we could call them detainees. Those guys have got no rights.

The Palestinians are pawns of larger forces.

Yes. Let?s get them off the board by whatever means possible.

You can?t make them give up the right of return.

No, not really. It?s a symbolic thing. But so is the right of return. I cancel out your symbol with my symbol.

What?s next, the Kashmiris? The East Timorese. Are you welcoming all the oppressed into our land?

No, but the Statue of Liberty is. Besides, those other guys aren?t really bothering us right now.

Black September! Black September!

Jordan trusted them, and let them have guns. We won’t, and they can’t

Fine then. Look at the trouble Europe has with its Muslims.

Europe pays them to sit around and plot all day. We?re going to make them fill up the Icee machine and clean toilets.

You’re a girl.

I?m not a girl. Though I do guess that Silflay Hraka does have a vague Romanian female feel about it if you don?t know what it means.

Thanks for playing, and remember to send all flames to Bigwig AT nc.rr.com

Update: A response to their response to my response to their response to…..oh the hell with it. It’s here